Careers in the Cloud - E35: Tony Schibono: Navigating Product Innovation, Design Leadership, and AI

In this episode, we welcome award-winning Product Designer, Tony Schibono!  

Tony boasts 15+ years of leading industry experience in designing brands, products, and experiences, even running his own design agency at one point! Tony shares his insights on the dramatic changes in the UX and product design field since he began in the field.  

We delve into the maturation of design operations, the shift from mobile-first to omni-channel approaches, the threat and rise of AI in design, and the differences between design roles and how they have evolved.  Tony offers advice to both new and seasoned designers on navigating these changes and highlights the biggest opportunities in design today. 

This episode is packed with invaluable knowledge and insight for anyone in the design community. 

We hope you enjoy the episode!  

Topics Covered:

1. Changes in UX Design and Market Evolution Since 2017

2. Tony's Unique Experience and Career Path in UX Design

3. Differences Between UX Design in Startups and Large Companies

4. Transition from Hands-On Designer to Design Executive

5. Impact of AI on UX and Product Design

6. Opportunities and Future Trends for Design Professionals

7. Balancing Human Creativity with AI in UX Design

8. Tips for Junior and Intermediate Designers to Stand Out

9. Importance of Human-Centric and Inclusive Design

10. How Design Agencies Can Leverage AI for Success

Transcript:

Please note, that this transcript is automated and may have errors.

So while there's many layers to UX design  in many different ways, if you talk Canada or if you talk Toronto, but more broadly Canada, if you don't know Tony Schibono, I don't know what you do know.  Tony, welcome to the show. You and I met back in  in 2016, 2017, probably. Yeah, seven, obviously seven, eight years ago, right at the time to give some context to everyone listening, I was completely specialized in staffing for UX design with designers in general.

 It was a heavy focus on UX design. You were the VP of design at Dipley. Okay. Since then, we've seen a lot of change, just the market situation in general. What would you say  is the most striking difference in the market today for UX and product design  in comparison to now when you and I like Yeah  first and foremost, thanks for having me on the show, Maurizio.

 I've been following this podcast for a bit now and  yeah, I was very honored when you invited me. So  thanks for inviting me on. Yeah. It's  it's been a minute since  since then  for sure. And there's been a lot of change, I would say, and a lot of evolution in the field of design and user experience design specifically.

   Looking back at  2017  some of the sort of big topics in the industry. And a lot of the focus  was really around early stages of what I would call  design maturity starting to really happen within  organizations and organizations recognizing the need to invest in design maturity.

   A lot of the topics around that time were around like. A mobile first approach  as  users and a lot of  transactional apps were primarily mobile    responsive design and design systems really started to emerge as part of the maturation of design ops within organizations  design operations started to become  Really a    viable investment for organizations to  turn design services from  more of a service arm to a business function.

So we saw it  a lot of that starting to emerge.    I think the design roles were less  standardized and the career paths weren't as well defined as they are today.    Hiring a UX designer, there wasn't a lot of  leveling up within organizations.  Now there's a lot more maturity along the    the individual contributor path to the lead leadership path.

     I think back then it was really an early stage of maturation. We're starting to see  in the design industry  bring us to 2024 and into 2025.    I think that has really taken hold in a lot of the organizations that are starting to really invest and benefit from mature design operations.

   I think today  A lot of the topics are around  the idea of automation and more standardization.    Less around innovation  and creating delight and differences, but really how do we create more consistency in the quality of the experience we're creating through    investment in design ops and standardization.

     Also, I think today  as I mentioned, we were really thinking mobile first. Now, I think we're much more omni channel  aware.   Thinking about experiences  multi channel, not just your digital experience, but how does that overlap  if you got a retail experience or some  other touch points  within your  UX strategy and CX strategy  really thinking holistically.

And I think CX is a    a  An extension of UX is really    blended with UX to think holistically there. So really a lot of maturation  in a short period of time.  Obviously AI integration is a big topic today and  how that's impacting design.  I hear a lot of that    I hear a lot of organizations really trying to figure out what that means and how to adapt quickly to that.

 I think a lot of advanced research techniques are also being enabled by AI.  Continuous feedback a lot faster than we were able to get it in the  mid, mid  2000s and into 2015 and 2017.    It was a lot more sort of manual research and UXR that was happening. Now there's a lot more automation of real time feedback.

 So I think overall we've really accelerated the practice and the discipline.  But   I think  I see there's also a lot, a way to go. And I think with the introduction of AI into our tools and as a method for understanding user needs  we're going to see even more maturation and acceleration    over the next few years, the one difference that I remember that I did see from you that did set you apart from a lot of others that I spoke to at that time, this was very much a period where everyone was working.

     So I'm going to give you a little bit of context.  So  I was     a company in Canada  and  I was   a, Most of the rest of the market across Canada, especially in Toronto, you're one of the few people at the time, I'm not saying the only one, but one of the few people who had some of  that broader experience from other markets like the United States  where, in my opinion, things are still today, obviously a little bit more advanced with respect to design, just    it's pretty obvious why, but also obviously back then  they were much further ahead and that probably helped put you in a bit of a different place at that point and  catapulted you into where you are today and why we, or we're going to talk a little bit about the differences between  certain hands on designers  and  people more at the executive level, but what it takes to get there, I think is at least for that time period, that breadth of experience, right?

 Between both. Yeah, absolutely.   I've  my career really started  as a consultant, as an individual designer that grew into a need to turn it into an agency. We were a boot cake agency at our smallest. We were two people at our largest. We were 15. And    I think  running that type of boutique agency at that time really exposed us to a lot of diversity  in terms of what is needed  as far as UX design in different types of organizations.

   For instance, we worked with a lot of  media and publishing companies who were  traditionally maybe print media, trying to understand  how do we evolve and transform into digital media?    We were working with a lot of. Tech startups    building transactional websites  trying to solve unique user problems.

  Their needs were a lot different at the time than  big media publishers.  And then  we were working with companies like Adobe who were looking at like, how do we take software out of the box and  put this online to create communities around these types of tools.

   I think that diversity of experience as a consultant and then as a boutique agency really enabled me to  step into the market with a diversity of skills to be able to bring. Bring to an organization and the leadership role and  in, when you contrast, say, larger companies compared to a startup perhaps that just doesn't have that same  level of people who care about what's being spent.

That's right. We'll say, I'm not saying in startups that doesn't happen. It's just, it's different.  Yeah.    What contrast have you experienced between both ends of the spectrum? I think the stakes are very different as it relates to innovation.  If you are a startup and you're  trying to create  a unique product within your market, innovation is  really important.

 In an effort to disrupt that market with  something new.  So innovation's really important there. And  we often think about innovation as some sort of new shiny product or object. Sometimes innovation is just understanding that unique product. Problem and how to solve it in a real unique way.

 That your competitors aren't.  And I think startups really need to figure out what that is to quickly get outta their seed stage into a real viable operating business.  I think at the  at the larger corporate level  the stakes are different.  The stakes are  we have a viable business today.

 We might be losing market share. We might be losing a bit of our market fit.  How do we transform to remain relevant? And what are the opportunities  via digital experiences  that will enable us to transform our current business into more of a digital business.  So with that, there's a lot of more risk aversion to innovation.

 And  again, as a consultant, we were always trying to find that fine line where innovation made sense as opposed to being  this extraneous risky kind of investment. Gotcha. Do a lot of  designers. Understand that I think in general    evidently more junior designers will  enter the market with that hunger to go to immediately innovate.

     I interviewed a lot of designers in my role today and I see a lot of  even intermediate level designers who really want to come in and make a fast impact through bringing really  innovation or fresh thinking.  And  I think that's a      it's a worthy goal to have  as a UX designer today.

   But  I think it's important for UX designers entering the market  whatever sort of stage they're at  to understand that in order to position yourself as a  contributor to the business, you need to understand    how to infuse your ideas contextually into that culture and that environment.

 So that you don't come off as just trying to be disruptive for the sake of disruption.    And I think having good  a good business acumen  understanding how, core metrics of the product translate into  business value.  And being able to develop that language along with your design language is critically important for designers wanting to  come into an organization and make impact.

 I've seen a lot of designers  come to the organization  wanting to make that quick impact  trying to really push fresh ideas and then, media getting frustrated and that they're  feeling like they're pushing a boulder up a hill.

    And my coaching to those designers is  take a step back  find your small wins first, build your credibility around your ability to articulate the value of the design you're creating. And once you build that credibility, you'll find more of those opportunities for innovative ideas.

I feel like this is part of the answer to my next question. But  let's say that junior designer gets to the most senior level that a hands on designer would get to, right? What still separates that senior hands on designer from what we would call a design executive? Yeah. VP of design, director of design, what's, what separates those two?

Yeah, great question.  Today. Great. I think there's been a lot of ambiguity around that in general, right? We talked about  the evolution from 2017 to 2024 and in the industry.  I think those roles are a lot crisper and well defined today within these organizations  a design executive really oversees the entire design function within the organization.

They influence the design strategy across multiple products. They work with multiple stakeholders. They both educate the organization on design, best design practices.      Bringing stakeholders along the path  that is a skill that I see    companies really looking for in design leadership today is being able to be that in a strong stakeholder management  be able to communicate the value of the investment design the organization is making and thus  be able to guide their teams towards those types of deliveries.

   As a senior designer, you're really focused on various. Very tactical aspects of your product and your project.    They might be a design lead, managing a few IC designers underneath them.   Understanding the best practice of how to execute, working with your design systems and design ops, ensuring consistency and  and continuity and      and really that relationship between the senior designer, the design executive is between those two dimensions of stakeholder management and,  continuing to articulate, communicate the value of the design investment. And then the other side, making sure you're actually executing. So you're delivering  on those  those values  you're promoting. Yeah. And that's a good continuation of what you just said, because obviously the sooner someone understands what we just talked about with respect to  realizing what the business's goals are, the sooner you're going to be able  to stomach what you have to, the conversations you have to have as a, As the design executive, right?

And it is  a funny contrast. If you look at even we don't have to name like company names or anything, it won't be possible to find out. But if you look at even back when we work together on stuff, when we were first  chatting and we had  some contract stuff going on, looking back at the description of what they're looking for, it was basically like a super hands on person.

And then you got there and it's  I don't do anything hands on. I don't even, I don't even open the laptop really. I have people doing that and I'm the person who's    I'm the  I'm the sponsor  of UX and this entire division of this big corporation.  That's right. It was a surprise, which you handled  and we had no doubt you'd be able to do it, but it took.

everything that we just said to get to that point where you could now be in that role. That's right. And  not only just be in the role, but also surprised with it, because that wasn't necessarily what. Absolutely. It's not what the doctor ordered, right? On paper, at least. Yeah. And  I think that echoes  that, that sort of journey of design maturation we were talking about, right?

Organizations better understand what those different roles are and why it's important to hire against those different roles.    In those days  you're quite right. We  organize, you'd be like, we hired a UX designer.  We needed them to project manage the design project. We need them to execute on it.

We need them to walk us down this path. Yeah.  And  you played that role of multiple hats. You didn't even know you're wearing multiple hats. because those roles weren't even defined yet.  Today we have very crisp, distinct roles between  different levels of IC designers from   junior to, to lead.

 We have a role within Yelp called design principal, which is  you've  graduated beyond the lead role. You're a key principal designer, somewhere between a design exact and a design. IC really  coaching other designers around best practices and  ensuring  good quality and continuity.

We have dedicated UXR researchers  focused on the research and understanding our users. And now we have design executives, even at the    chief executive table    guiding  leaders and decision makers towards better design decisions for the organization and their products. Because  of  the fact that you built your own agency at one point, right?

Do you, when you work at a, in a corporate environment, do you tend to  run the team a little bit like a design agency? So the best of your ability or yeah, allow  I, I find opportunities to, to be a little bit more efficient where we can, by being a little more scrappy and tactical. One thing  I have seen emerge through design maturation within large organizations is what sometimes feels like a lot of  ridiculous.

Redundant activities around design.    Often  we will spend a lot of time on user research  trying to identify user problems that  are pretty evident through our metrics. Do we need to do this level of research?      I've seen that happen within companies where then execs are like, why are we continuing to invest in this?

We already knew this, right? So I think it's important that  you. Focus your design investment on    quality artifacts and outputs  in the activities that you assign to them  so that they don't become redundant, right?  So  I think there's still maturing happening around that topic  with the industry, but  but I do think there's  it's gotten a lot better since      the time we met.

So skipping ahead to today  what is the threat to product design as it relates to the emergence of AI? Yeah.  Obviously this is a big meaty topic  in the, in our industry today.  So I think there's, I think there's specific threats to design and product design as a discipline as a whole. And there's specific threats to  UX designers.

So I'll    speak across those two.    What I'm particularly concerned about  in our faith of what AI can bring us is really around the loss of human touch. And      human Creativity, really    if you look at a lot of the ar AI art that's generated today  I find it  it lasts  this distinction of identity or style that you just don't see.

can't achieve in the same way with AI generated art that you get from a human.  AI uses existing  information and inputs in order to generate its outputs.    To expect AI to be able to You know, find something deep within itself and then express that through art, I think, is something I'm, I don't believe AI will ever achieve.

 So I think that  as I think design and creativity, which are obviously  very much intertwined    be safe in that realm, right? I think humans will always have a need to bring divine inspiration to the work they're creating. I don't believe AI can ever get to a place of divine inspiration.

I might be wrong, but I still think humans need to fuel that even if AI takes that and  generates the output.    I think. The other thing that's at risk is a lot of bias and ethical concerns.    A big thing we do in UX design  is empathy and empathizing with our users and understanding  the nuances of their needs, their problems  on  within a bunch of different dimensions.

   I think  the way I works today is again, without that deeper intuitive human sense  there is a concern that  some ethical. Conduct might be overseen or unethical contact might be    overseen in the way I might approach certain design problem solving.  I also think there's a data privacy and security risk.

   As we allow AI to design    is it able to identify, again, a lot of these nuanced risks that might be associated with data loss or security or personal security, right?  We're seeing a trend today where  users, and I'm seeing some companies coming to the market today, where we're trying to tokenize personalized information so that you're actually in control of the personalized data points that you're bringing to any product  or experience.

 I think that's a great thing, but I also think if we use AI to Be the filter of that. There's some certain risks that come with that.    And lastly, I think  over emphasis on efficiency can be very dangerous as well.  The creative process.  I think the creative process naturally has some redundancy in it, and I think they get to great Creative ideas and unique, innovative ideas.

    I have a saying I say to my team all the time is  have we left no stone unturned, right?    Say that to a bunch of  execs with a particular targets  it's  wow, that sounds really redundant and expensive. So I think finding that way to harness creativity  so that  it's not just about efficiency, but it's about.

   If we rely on AI in the very sort of efficiency  first approach, we miss those opportunities for unique creative discoveries. Yeah.  I'm probably gonna sound like a complete moron if I make this comparison, but this is the best way that like me, someone who's not a designer  can try and make a comparison when you say, okay, you can have an AI generated product and someone who  basically puts  their own  like you said, divine creativity into building something quite thoughtful, right?

I don't know. You can probably  these days  program a beautiful song, but it's not going to make me not pay to go see my favorite band. As consumers, we value  really well crafted products, right?  Whether it's   literally at a craft sale by an individual or    the next Apple product.

 I think it's evident that consumers value high quality products.  Crafted products, right?  I think craft is a  human endeavor, right?  It takes commitment. It takes discipline. It takes a lot of redundancy as we were just talking about.     And I think AI systems are coded for efficiency.

 They're aggregating so many different data points and using general intelligence to serve you the best answer in the most efficient way.    Perhaps there's a way we'll be able to program AI bots to  be a little bit more inspired and find divine inspiration. I'm personally skeptical  but I do think that's something we will  continue to need from the human workforce.

Do you think there's  do you think there could be not just disclaimers, but even price differences where, If a client wants something done by a person, or they want something done with AI  could there be that discrepancy? I think that's inevitable. Yeah.  That we're going to see models of  efficient creative output.

In fact, I think we've already seen a few examples of that.  And  today it's pretty easy to identify, I would say still.    That something was either generated via AI or  doesn't have that kind of unique  human touch.  I think the creative agencies that will win in this game will figure out how to utilize AI to spark ideas, generate early ideas.

Help accelerate the creative process, but still have the        the human intuition and inspiration  guide it to  the  final product.  So I think  I, no doubt agencies will build these models of  you just want an AI campaign. Here you go.  If you want our top creative director, that's going to cost a lot more.

 But I do think the agencies that will win, we'll figure out how to find that balance of both.  And going back to what we talked about with  the threats to product design in general, right? It  are all designers here threatened by this technology  or perhaps only some designers, and if there is a difference, what is that difference?

I think who's at most at risk today are any designers who are working within  routine template based design tasks.    All that will be automated.  And I'm not just talking about product designers  graphic designers  logo designers    anything that's just  more methodical design production.

If you're  in a design production  role  maybe. It's still pumping out web banners or    doing graphic chops or these sorts of things. All this will be automated. Actually, we're already seeing a lot of that automation within the tools we're using.  So I think if you're in that type of role, you really want to start  sharpening your skills more around strategic design thinking  understanding how to  carry the design process from initial problem to a solution    and start to move out of that just  pure production designer role.

 I also think  low complexity roles are going to be very quickly  replaced.   I recently saw this feature within Figma where you can literally hit a button and generate multiple design variations within seconds.  You  give it its design constraints and you've got ideation, which you may have done  through a five person workshop otherwise.

 So I think    those low complexity tasks were very quickly. We're already seeing those  being replaced.  And I think junior and entry level designers  need to come to the market with a lot more today to be able to get the foot in the door and really start to  prove their value  beyond what the AI is already going to be doing at that junior level.

So I think from a, who's at most risk, I would say probably across those three. That also made me think of. of something else is  I don't know if you would know off the top of your head, but what's  the most difficult thing for if you look at the best AI tools in design right now, you take the best designer, right?

And what's the hardest thing for that those types of tools? To replicate with respect to a really fantastic designer today. I think there's two things.  One is problem framing, understanding the depths of the problem you're trying to solve. Okay.    I don't think AI has  been integrated in a way where  we're able to understand our user problems  at that level of depth.

Okay.  We are seeing a lot of    tools Giving us continuous feedback in real time, like on a day to day basis where  we might have had to done more UXR or  wait a month to see  what the metrics hit. We are getting a lot more efficient in getting that continuous feedback.

 How you digest that feedback and problem framing before you use AI, I think is really important.  Really important.  The tool I mentioned today in, within Figma, where you can generate design variations, you have to be able to give it design constraints.  So you can  say  these are the bounds of the problem.

These are the bounds  of the design. Here's our guardrails and our constraints, and then it can generate those ideas whereby it'll generate relevant ideas without that problem framing. You're just getting  a lot of different ideas that might actually not be solving the problem. So I do think  a lot of.

 Human ingenuity is required for that level of the design process. So what  I'm  putting this little puzzle together  and  thinking of it from a junior designer's perspective, that's really  if they were thinking from scratch today  what can I really do? Number one is probably understand the best tools out there.

And what do they do? Contrast that those  products,  with say some of the top people in industry look at where those gaps aren't met yet.  We could talk all day about  some AI doomsday future, but like deal with today, right? Let's look at what's actually  what are, what is actually being bought and sold  with respect to products that gap really, I guess if they focus more  where AI just simply can't yet replicate what that human can do and focus on those types of skills.

Being able to show that in an interview, in a portfolio  not just simply with a standard case study, but maybe focusing more perhaps on problem framing, being able to show that. That's something that  could make them stand out  if they're having a little bit of trouble. Yeah, finding that next job for  absolutely.

Okay.   Design solution in a lot of ways. I always say it's  the easy part of the process. Once you've understand the problem really well, the solution reveals itself.      That part I think is already in a state of automation.  Understanding the right problem to solve, prioritizing the right problems to solve.

 Ensuring their actual problems through investigation of different dimensions, both on the quantitative and qualitative side of things.  Again, that's hard to automate today with the AI tools we have. Okay.  And going back to what you were saying  a couple of points ago, right?  When  you were mentioning the most successful agencies are going to use AI.

to do this. And that's really what's going to catapult them.  Can we just try and nail that down?  Like    how AI is going to help the best product designers today, like really accelerate best at best designers and the best agencies or design teams. I think it is at the idea generation stage.

 I just, as I just mentioned, I think  if you have the right problem, Frame doubt the solution space becomes easier.  But traditionally it requires a lot of creative muscle and a lot of human muscle, right? We would run    it would take us a couple weeks to plan a cross functional workshop around these problems.

We're trying to solve. We'd have to run that workshop      Utilizing a variety of workshop activities    we would then have to distill those ideas into what's valuable. What's relevant to the problem? What do we think actually solves the problem?    We might get in a 10 person workshop, maybe 20 to 30 ideas out of that exercise.

 I can go into figma, give it problem framing and with a press of a button generate 200 ideas today.    In a creative agency, you give it a creative problem  before you go tapping your designers and your creative directors  you start with a large pool of ideas and that today can be automated.

   Where you take it from there, you could probably still use AI to prioritize and  distill those ideas down. But at the end of the day, I do believe  the human, the creative director needs to come in and use their intuitive sense to understand which of these ideas is going to connect with their audience the best.

Yeah. Yeah, because it really is still a  people focused outcome, right? If I can say it like that, so it does make a lot of sense. I think there's a lot of spaces right now that It's there's almost like the same remedy for success in using the tools even in sales as a salesperson, right? Believe me we get tons of Companies reaching out for this tool and that tool change your life kind of thing Yeah, but at the end of the day, it's really what tool can be used to equip the right sales team to use their time in our world, use our, their time more effectively, but it's not so different from where you guys are sitting.

 That's save time in some areas. So you can use this and in your world, a little bit of this too,  to make the best product  in record time.  If it permits. And I think that's the opportunity we have, right? It's these tools really should be  I think if we're going to embrace them, we have to look at how they will enable us to continue to do what we do even better.

   If we continue to see them just purely as risk and replacement, I think then you're likely to be replaced by some of these tools.   Understanding a tool is just a tool, how we choose to utilize that tool  is really the difference between being successful or not. Okay, last question for you.

Where would you say lies the biggest opportunity for design professionals today? I believe human centric and inclusive design is probably the best thing you could start investing your time in learning and really becoming an expert in as we move into the future. I think the topic topics of accessibility, inclusion, empathy driven design, Is going to remain for a long time to be  very critical for companies to invest in.

 So as  a lot of these common tasks, a lot of these things we do as designers become more and more automated, being able to  communicate about. Inclusive, inclusivity, accessibility      cultural fit  understanding the nuances of the social dynamics  of the designs you're creating    I think that is going to be very much required with all this automation that's coming because automation    I don't think we'll be able to find those magic opportunities  when looking at the problem space in a design process.

And that, that in itself is something very much so that  it's in the person, it's in the designer.  Absolutely. Absolutely. If you look  at the trends      something comes to mind is what we see  in  the phenomenal memes today.  Very hard to predict  which next meme is going to take off.

 Very hard to predict.     I think it's the same with creative ideas, right? Yes. Yes. We can try to control. the output and the reaction to what we're putting out in the world, be it a campaign or a digital product. At the end of the day, it's those kind of unique, creative, inspired moments that created that product that really makes a difference between whether it's going to live and breathe  within its audience and within its user base  or just become  stale and irrelevant.

 So I do think that's still    a big part of the human investment in design  that. It's going to last a long time still, even with these threats of AI. Yeah. So you're doing more and more  like mentorship type activities these days, speaking engagements  and trainings and whatnot.  Number one, is it okay if    junior designers, intermediate designers, even senior, it doesn't matter what level you are, really, but designers in the space reach out to you  for advice.

And if so, Where's the best place for them to find you? Yeah, absolutely. Please do.  I'm on LinkedIn. I     I do respond to LinkedIn messages. I was love hearing and seeing what  younger junior intermediate designers are working on these days.  LinkedIn is a great way to, to  connect with me.

 I would say that's probably the primary place. You heard it here first. Hit him on LinkedIn. Tony Schibono. Thanks for joining. Thanks for having me, Maurizio. It's been great.